-- this is too big -- this is too big an issue to play chicken with. >> and you have said that you think the debt ceiling has to be raised? >> america shouldn't default. and i sympathize with the people who say secretary geithner could be exaggerating. but i sure as heck don't want to test that, and i can tell you one thing, there's nothing good about defaulting. that isn't a good thing to do, particularly for those of us who are conservative republicans who have a great deal of sense that, you know, you've got to have a balanced budget, you've got to pay your debts, you've got to kind of work these things out, you can compromise somewhat but you can't compromise too much. so i hope -- >> if you were sitting at the table, would you say, yeah, i'll agree to closing loopholes on oil and gas companies for 1.5 or 2.5 or any amount of spending? >> i wouldn't do tax increases as a way to compromise. >> none. >> if we compromise, let's compromise about spending decreases and the extent of them because we would like to go a lot further than the democrats would go, and i think there's area for ne